Jesus was a Jew who was condemned against by his own people…the Jews.
Israel was formed on blood in the last century..it was always known as Palestine until the Balfour Declaration came about.
Jews, Muslims, Christians all lived peacefully until the British government decided to cause separation in Palestine.
Zionism is not Judaism…it’s a perversion of Judaism and goes against God and against all people that are not Jews.
Even orthodox Jews take a stand against Zionist Jews.

Your commitment to Israel is laughable.

Strange you should support the Zionist state of Israel when they commit such atrocities that the world turns a blind eye to it.

You have your facts wrong.

1. Isreal was not always known as Palestine, it was known as Israel and then later as Israel and Judah after the ten tribe split. The Jewish people were in Israel long long long before any Muslims. So if you want to get technical about who actually has claim to Isreal, I’m afraid the Muslims lose by a few thousand years.
2. Jesus Christ came to earth to die. Heaven help mankind if he did not. If you knew anything about the Bible you would know how absolutely critical this is. And thank GOD that He sent His Son to be sacrified for our sins.
3. After the Isreali state was formed it was the Muslims who lead with the first act of aggression (and were handed their butts). So as you can see it’s Muslims that started the aggression.
4. As christians the scriptures tell us to support Israel, in fact we are explicitly told to “pray for the peace of Jerusalem…” So I’ll be praying for and supporting Israel until the day I die. I love Israel and the Jewish people.
5. If you call Zionism a perversion of Judaism and you call their acts atrocities… What do you call the terrorism acts of the Muslims?
6. My commitment to Israel may be laughable to you but not to GOD.
7. Israel is the gutsiest nation on this planet. What other nation could have survived the odds they have survived?

Isreal is a tiny state with 6 million people that has enemy states surrounding it on EVERY side with hundreds of millions of people who are completely hostile towards them. They have had numerous wars where the combined forces of many of these hostile states have been united against them. They have overcome every one and everytime putting the Muslims armies to shame and humiliating them.

I would like to see any other nation on earth do that? Why is that I wonder?

Could it be because GOD is with Israel, and therefore they will never be overcome.

No my friend, Israel is a beacon of hope in this world. They are courageous, resourceful and have done wonders with their country.

What did the Muslims do with Palestine while they had it? Nothing, it went to the dogs!

Israel stands out in the middle east as a country of success leading the way in farming, industry, technology, business.. The list is long! And they have no oil. The Arab countries in the region are oppressive, backward thinking and full of terrorists. I would even say that if Israel was not around for all of them to hate that the whole area would go down in a ball of flames as tribe tries to destroy tribe and country tries to conquer country.

You can carry on whining about how bad Israel is but you have no leg to stand on. Israel puts all the Arab countries around her to shame!

I continue to pray for the peace of Jerusalem…

I stand with Israel to
can i use Your “IstandwithIsrael”-picture for my blog?
Thanks

Certainly, the more the merrier!

Any one tell me how is the Palestanine, and Kananian?? is they were before Israel???

yes I stand with Israel and the Jewish people and the rebuilding of the temple. They are Gods’ chosen people and they will be blessed, and those that bless them will be blessed and those that curse them will be cursed. it is amazing to see prophecy after prophecy from the bible unfold right before our eyes. Jesus is coming soon. Be ready for His coming is soon.

Yes I am with Isreal. How can you go against God’s word. It is simple Curse Isreal and you will be cursed but BLESS ISREAL and you will be BLESSED. I am blessed. Isreal are God’s chosen people.
To all Isreal’s whatch out your time is up!

I stand for Isreal!!! Gaza and others “They” can not continue to bully Israel. The mild and weakest child has a point where he fights back. Israel is just! So just deal with it.
Gaza and a few others are instigators and antagonist. Israel fights back and everyone cries foul. Get over it.

Gods Law is clear defend Isreal!

As a Christian according to the early Jewish disciple of Jesus Christ whereby Christianity was founded, I STAND WITH ISRAEL. Keeping the commandments of The Almighty God displays our love for Jesus Christ who was a Jew.

I am definitely in support of Israel. In Deut. 7:6-8 The Lord tells us that He Himself chose the nation of Israel out of all the peoples on the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. I’m afraid no opinion will ever change that. Glad to be grafted in and aware of my jewish roots. Hope to be in Israel again soon. My family and I had such a life changing experience in Israel – we will never be the same again!

I sincerely hope the incipid islamic morons completely and utterly destroy the hooknosed thieving jids , kind of like a final solution you might say , it’s just a shame no one’s in the mood for randomly attacking fundamentalist christian morons.

Muwahahaha, Its very funny to read your comments, If god has already chosen Israelites as the people of his own, Then why he create us, Just to watch us serving the chosen ones? hehehehe, Guys you are ignorants, you need to educate your self.

You are sadly mistaken: The Jews are no longer God’s chosen people….those who follow Christ, the only Son of God, now hold that distinction. But this distinction is available to every living person on the planet (including Jews) who accepts Jesus as being the Messiah.

Jews being “God’s chosen people” officially ended in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem and the decimation of the last temple (to the degree that not one stone was left upon another). The Old Testament prophets (e.g. Isaiah and Daniel) spoke of this end-of-the-age…the end of the Mosaic Age, not the end of the world as we know it…and warned the apostate Jews that their days were numbered.

The 7 years of tribulation- from 67 AD to 73AD- bracketed this well-defined ending of the age, with the rebellion of the Jews against Rome starting the clock and their final destruction at Masada in 73 AD marking the end. In the middle was the COMPLETE destruction of Jerusalem and temple by the Roman armies FOR A REASON!!! It was God severing His covenant with the Jews once and for all, with their salvation being dependent upon their acceptance of Jesus just like everyone else who would be born after them.

Now this sounds like an anti-Semitic view point but it is not. It is simply the way that it is: The playing field is now leveled. If an individual wants to be chosen, then they have to choose God and His only begotten son…end of story. Again, this is available to all. We have free choice. Choose wisely.

And, it is NOT God’s will that the Jews build another temple. He used the Romans to destroy the last one for a VERY good reason. WE are the temple now. The Holy Spirit now resides IN us. (That only occurred at Pentecost and afterwards, not before except in individual instances.) So, God’s chosen people are now those who are filled with the Holy Spirit. Are Jews or anyone else who reject Christ filled with His Holy Spirit???

But I do agree: Pray for the Jews, just like you would for others who don’t know Jesus. Pray that they finally accept Christ. That is their only true, assured and lasting hope. But don’t call people- who can’t know God by virtue of their disbelief- “God’s chosen people”. If nothing else, that is an insult to believers.

Please read or reread the Old Testament. See what God was saying through the prophets and how he finally did what He said he was going to do all along…remove those who did not follow Him and His commands from His presence.

The Age of the Church began with the end of the Mosaic Age. It was not the end of the world but rather the beginning of the re-establishment of God’s Kingdom here on earth. As the Lord’s Prayer says “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.” And as Paul said “I can do ALL things through Christ, which strengthens me.” What more do we need to win this battle???

World without end (Isaiah and Paul said this), Amen.

Boanerges

PS. Dispensationalism is a MYTH, just like the one started by one of John Nelson Darby’s contemporaries…Charles Darwin.)

Whow, how can some people be so ignorent. Israel has always been the nation chosen by God. Yes Jesus is the Truth the Life and the Way, and nobody can come to the Father except through Him, but God has chosen Israel and He alone will decide how He will deal with them who does’nt except Christ, as clearly explained in the prophets and in Revelation. We have to pray for Israel untill the end, this is not debatable for any true christian (The Bride). yes I stand with Israel, not just for the blessings but according to Heb 10:31 “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
May God have mercy on those who go against Israel.

I am an adrent admirer of Jews, their culture, history, language, their acts in present day. The stubborness of the Isarelies is well displayed in their modern wars with thier Arab neighbours. As a Christiain I have to love the jews, pray for the Peace of Jerushalem that was taught to us by my parents.

I’m smiling as I read these comments … I take comfort in the fact that christianity will fade in the next couple of hundred years. Reason will prevail.

Sevendust, you speak about reason prevailing. If you truly are seeking the truth and have an open mind (or even if you don’t and want to try to disprove Christianity outright with reason) do yourself a favour and get hold of the writings and debates of Dr. Greg Bahnsen (And also check out the writings of Cornelius van Till).

Chritianity is about faith and trust in GOD but Christianity is also ENTIRELY rational and the ONLY coherent and cogent world view out there.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised and perhaps have a different take on Christianity, GOD and our Lord Jesus Christ.

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly which made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began: ‘Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses.

When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, ‘What a good opportunity to have a bath!’

He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water.

When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.’

The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, ‘What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren’t there then.’

The Israeli representative smiled and said, ‘And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.

Amen! I support Israel and is not ashamed or afraid to give my name.

I lived in Jerusalem in 1983 for nearly a year. Presently my eldest daughter lives in Jerusalem till the end of this year.
Through the ages the only thing that proves that my G-d is alive, is the survival of the Jews.
Jesus (Yehashua) was born as a Jew, died as a Jew, first for His own people and also for every other person that accept Him.
I will not be surprised when He returns to Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 “And I shall pour on the house of Dawiḏ and on the inhabitants of Yerushalayim a spirit of favour and prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son. And they shall be in bitterness over Him as a bitterness over the first-born.
Zec 12:11 “In that day the mourning in Yerushalayim is going to be great, like the mourning at Haḏaḏ Rimmon in the valley of Meḡiddo.
Zec 12:12 “And the land shall mourn, every clan by itself: the clan of the house of Dawiḏ by itself, and their women by themselves; the clan of the house of Nathan by itself, and their women by themselves;
Zec 12:13 the clan of the house of Lĕwi by itself, and their women by themselves; the clan of Shimʽi by itself, and their women by themselves;
Zec 12:14 all the rest of the clans, every clan by itself, and their women by themselves.
As in the times of Egypt Joseph revealed himself to his brothers, Jesus will do so again before he returns. Majority of Jews turning to G-d does so when He reveals Himself to them.
I really feel sorry for those that turn against G-d’s people.

Placing religion to the side for a moment…
What is wrong with the media and the world?
Israel has been beaten pushed and lied about for a long time now. Gaza’s hamas can attack Israel daily with a barrage of missiles and there is nothing in the media. Israel stands up says enough is enough and everyone jumps on Israel calling foul. Why?
Does the world not have eyes?

1- if jesus is here these adays will he accept what israel did in gaza

2- if moses is here these adays will he accept this pure killing
in gaza

you people are blind , you just cannot see at all

god gave you a brain to think , an eye to see even the eye could trick you sometime .

I luv Israel & will always pray for the peace of Israel.
God Bless U ISRAEL

Every time the Palestinians were given a peace offering for a state since 1922 (then they actually received Jordan), they have rejected it.
It is interesting to note that before 1967 the Palestinians (nor Egypt or Jordan) tried to create one in the present West Bank or Gaza.
It is true what Golda Meir said “As long as they love war more than their children, there won’t be peace”.
It is prophesied Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man. His hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him. And he shall live in the presence of all his brothers.

once you accept others believe , thoughts , then you start to see

but talking about killing them all , nuke them , and saying you are in heaven and others in hell , you are totaly blind ,add to that in the name of jesus or moses ,(who said jesus or moses accept this nonesense) ( when a criminal commet his crime he is blind ,later on he will regret it .
saying the palestanine were given jordan is just not true , they’ve been kicked out to jordan ,they live as arefugee in jordan ,syria ,eygpt ,lebanon , and all over the world, israel alaways deny even the existance of the palestanine ,whats happiened is the biggest crime in the moderen history.

Dear Saeed

Firstly you must understand that there is absolutely no partiality with God. All are one in Christ Jesus.Jew and all other nations. God desires all men to come to the truth and be saved. As Jesus forgave your sins and was crucified for you, so you must also forgive others who wrong or sin against you. Jesus said !!! Confess your sins to one another,and pray for one another so that you may be healed.

Take the Bible in your Hands, go in a room where nobody can worry you, and say Lord please speak to me.If you have surrended, all bitterness, hatred unconditionally, and admit you are a sinner. And you want to be saved with your whole heart. God will reveal Himself to you, by his Word !!!!!!! and you will be set free. If you need to corrospond with me please feel free to e-mail me on pekpbotha@yahoo.com . Regards Philip I am praying for You !!

GO AHEAD LOVE ISRAEL SUPPORT ISRAEL AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT ISRAEL WILL LEAD YOU TO GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

P.S. Jesus is a prophet

Jesus is the Messiah and no one can change that and the entire world will know soon enough. Yes, the Jews are God chosen people. The only way that we can understand the revelation of God is through a spiritual mind that only God can reveal to us his knowledge, wisdom and understanding and not man.

does god needs rest and refreshing

check this and think and i hope you think deeply as its very important and could save you

a God that needs to Rest”, or a “God that does Not need Rest
{Exo. 31:17} “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and on the seventh day he Rested, and was Refreshed
{Qur’an 50:38} “We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us
Do you choose a God that Forgets over a God that does Not make errors.
{Psalm 13:1} “How long will You Forget me, O Lord”
{Qur’an 20:52} “My Lord Never Errs, Nor Forgets”
believe in a God that “Sires” children
Heb. 5:5} “God said to Jesus,’You are my son today I have begotten you” *Also* {Psalm 2:7} “God said to David, ‘You are my son today I have begotten you” [K.J.V.]
{ Qur’an 112:1} “Say: He is Allah, The One; Allah, the Eternal Absolute; He does Not Beget, Nor is He Begotten, and there is None Like unto Him.
Do you believe in a God that “regrets”, feels andproclaims to be “mistaken
[Gen. 6:6] And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth,and it grieved him to his
heart. [he said]: [Gen 6:7] “For I am sorry that I have made them
give your Soul a “Fair Trial and think twice before saying
i don’t believe in god
or Jesus is my lord
or
or
its not as simple as that
its serous very serous
and its up to you in your believes just witness that i am Muslim and i did
told you

It is interesting to note that when all the Arab nations fought against the few hundred thousand Jews that returned from the Arab countries and the holocaust, they couldn’t remove it.
As long as the “Palestinians” love war more than their children, there won’t be peace.
How can a father send his son with bombs tied to his body to go and commit suicide amongst women and children. Only a murderer who does not have any decency or guts can do that.
Just a bunch of cowards can have their HQ amongst school children and women. Just a bunch of cowards can launch their rockets from hospital properties.
No wonder they cannot and will not win this war.

carl muller

who said the palestanine love war more than their childeren?
who said a palestanine father send his son to commit suicide?

look at the tone of your words , i wonder who is coward ?

tell you what at the end of the day we are cousnes didnt we ?
or you didnt recognise ISHMAEL AS APROPHET son of abaraham
as you didnt recgnise the palestanine as a nation living in this land
or this palestine is a land with no people ?
or it was desret and we (the jew) make it green land)
all these lie’s are not working any more ….
give your heart afair trail .(if you brave not a coward)

I have never heard of a Jewish man sending his children with bombs tied to his body to go and kills Arabs/Muslims or Palestinians. However, I read regularly of Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians doing it.

Carl Muller ,
you just read about bombs , socide ,
you ignored or didnt read more than 60 years of occupation , pure killing , more than 4 millions live as arefugees even dogs refusee to live in such asituation .
more than 10,000 of prisnores ,
you read but i live the situation ,
carl this israel is illegal and whats happiend to the palestanine is the biggest crime in the moderen history
again carl open your heart and dont ignore the truth ?
since when occupation is legal ? just be brave and say yes occupation is illegal and wrong and the palestanine are humans , have the right to live in there land free .
refugees have the right to go back to theire villges and towns
could you say that ? (if you are honest, good man , brave enough you will)

According to the Bible the land belong to the Israelis. The UN in 1947 divided and gave the east part to the Jordanians, the west to the Jews.
According to history there were Jews in their own land since 1950 years BC. There has always been Jews there.
Why did the Palestinian people not accept the fact that there is a Jewish state.
Why is Israel developed and the West Bank and Gaza not?
Why do you refuse to accept Israel as a state. You people had jobs in Israel, and then because you send in suicide missions they build the wall.
The Jews were forced out of Arab countries with just the clothes on their backs. They went to Israel and build a beautiful country. What have the Palestinian people done in Gaza and the West Bank – nothing.
You only want war, and you are getting it, and losing it. Do the Israelis send in soldiers to come and kill you, no, they retaliate. The day you want peace, Israel is waiting to make peace. Accept the right of the Jewish people to live next to you.
I lived in the land of Israel in 1983. It is a beautiful country. There is space for all. There is peace for all. For those that want it.

its the same tone ,the same lies , we (the jew) turn this land palestine from deseret to green land

what did you do ?

we turn israel , palestine to awonderfull country
why you didnt develop in west bank and gaza …

its like you cannot see …its like you are blind mr carl

simply because israel occupied west bank and gaza
simply because every product ,any thing to be imported ,or exported have to go through israel ….
occupation is occupation , its ugly very ugly ,add to that check points between the city’s, again carl you can see you are not blind (but you are not brave enough to admit it)

Dear Brother Saeed:
For a moment, I want you to come out of your mindset or what you think is right. Before you, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob existed, who is all-powerful, all-knowing and is omnipresent. Psalms 24:1-2 states that The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods. NOT MAN!! Ishmael was the son of Abraham, but through Abraham’s son Isaac, the covenant was made. If Abraham’s wife Sari had believed and waited for God’s promise, Ishmael would not have been born, but nonetheless, God had a plan.

Mr. Saeed, James 1:5 indicates that If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to ALL men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. So it is not about what you or I think, but it is what God has stated in the His Holy Word, The Bible, that will come to pass.

People that hate Israel and do them harm will be cursed by The Almighty God, and the world will see very soon. No Nation or Anyone will destroy Israel, because God will not allow it.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let ALL the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand:

Joel 2:10-11 The earth shall quake before them: the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is Very Great: for he is Strong that executeth his Word: for the day of the Lord is Great and very Terrible; and who can abide it? LEAVE ISAREL ALONE!! OTHERWISE, WE ALL WILL PERISH.

JERUSALEM BELONGS TO ISAREL. It does not matter who is occupying what, Jerusalem belongs to Israel and most of the Middle East that was in the covenant that God made with Abraham. The Jews owes about one-third of the land that God promise them, and their enemies trying to take the 1/3, but God is saying, NOT SO. Joel 3:2, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehosaphat and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Jerusalem should have never been divided, it belongs to the Jews and no one else, and until we obey what God has commanded us to do, we will always experience troubles.

Zechariah 12:9 And It shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Now, Mr Saeed, God is Love, John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.

BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST. Jesus will give you a new way of thinking if you accept him as your personal Savior.
Luke 24: 45-49, Then opened he (disciples) their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among ALL nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye (disciples) are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost (indwelling Spirit of God) is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2: 38-39, Then Peter (disciple) said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Brother Saeed, Salvation is for you and your house, it will change the heart of stone to a heart of flesh, meaning the hate for Israel or anyone will be gone. I am talking about TRUE CHRISTIANITY those that obey the Word of God, line upon line and precept upon precept and live a Holy and set apart life.

Love Israel And Be Blessed, and Except Jesus Christ and live in Heaven eternal.

dear Bettie ,
are you willing to corrspend with me by email to discuss the issue , (as some from here did ask me before to discuss the issue once i’ve told them i am muslim ,never heared from them )as i am willing to go as far as it take me even to meet with you or any one who is really searching for the truth .

as long we accept each other as humans , we respect each other , we both in the same ship (this earth) . then surly we can talk and discuss any matters or issues or dissagrees .

but posting hate , justfying killing , occupation , all palestanines are terrorists, all of them , 4 milions lives as refugees and its justifable saying its allright add to that in the name of the bible ,jesus , moses ,

more than 60 years of suffring for the palestanine , then mr carl saying why they didnt devlope in the west bank and gaza while they did in israel and turn it to awonderfull place to live
in a meanning god with israel ,

then seeing bombs, and sucide bombs and not seeing all the picture….its not fair by mr carl and he prove it he is not brave ,honest man .
………………………….
dear Bettie,
you asked me to go out of my mindset and i am asking you the same

waiting for your email.

regards
saeed

Scott Leckie is the Director of an NGO (COHRE — Committee on Housing Rights and Evictions) that specializes in the technical issues of tracing down and adjudicating the consequences of dispossession amongst refugees. He writes, in a personal communication with Joel Kovel, author of the 2006 book published by Toronto’s Between the Lines “Overcoming Zionism: Creating a Single Democratic State in Israel/Palestine”:

“Although the prevailing status quo may appear to indicate that the implementation of the rights of displaced Palestinian refugees to return to the homes, lands, and properties from which they have been arbitrarily and illegally displaced is nothing more than a pipedream, nothing could be further from the truth. Restitution of refugee property has now become the norm. Millions of refugees and displaced persons have returned to their original homes in recent decades, from Bosnia, South Africa, and Tajikistan to Germany.

Of the dozens of large, displaced populations throughout the world who have yet to exersize these rights — Serbs, Ossetians, Congolese, Burundians, Liberians, Afghans, and others — no group has anything near the facts, documentation, evidence, and legal basis supporting the right to housing and property restitution as those held by the million-strong Palestinian refugee community. The world has at its fingertips virtually all the land records, title deeds, historical documents, photographs — even house keys — required to make fair restitution a reality for all displaced Palestinians.”

Let us remember that what is common amongst us all is that we are human beings. I believe that in THIS time, when there are 6.5 billion human beings living on a planet groaning with environmental degradation, what anyone wrote, even if inspired by God or Allah, in the past is subject to a modern interpretation that requires us to communicate peacefully with others depending on another religion. Now is now, and it has never happened before. Surely that means that, while reading scripture, we must be aware that NOW is different in some significant aspect from the moment when a particular piece of scripture was written. If this were not true, why would God or Allah have given us the ability to think creatively?

Dear Saeed
I will be more than happy to discuss anything from a spiritual perspective. It does not matter what’s your title. Whether you are muslin, are non muslim, it does not matter to me. One thing I do know is that first and foremost you are a human being, and that God created you in his own image and after his likeness, according to Genesis 2:26-27. Saeed for this reason, I must love and respect you. This is the will of God, and this is Christianity or being like Jesus Christ. He died for the entire world. It did not matter to him. It might sound a little bit confusion, because of all the problems that are among us, but we will understand it soon. God has a purpose for all of us.
Haggai 2, The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts: and in this place will I give peace saith the Lord of hosts. I might not know all of the answers, but I will pray in Jesus name and ask God to give me what to say.

Dear Saeed
My email is btfnc@aol.com

Thank you

With hindsight, the creation of the state of Israel after WW2 was a mistake. At the time, after the shocking persecution of the Jews, it must have seemed like a good idea to create a safe haven for them. In todays world where separation of the State and religion is fundamental to human rights, Israel is an anomaly like other religion based states eg Iran.

On principal, I can’t support Israel any more than Palestine.

Perhaps if both countries (in fact the whole middle east) were able to completely separate state from religion ie become models of secular governance, the conflict could be solved. While it is based on religious ideologies there is no chance of a solution as children on both sides are indoctrinated with opposing religious views from an early age and will continue to fight for those views throughout their lives.

From Rick B: “With hindsight, the creation of the state of Israel after WW2 was a mistake. At the time, after the shocking persecution of the Jews, it must have seemed like a good idea to create a safe haven for them. In todays world where separation of the State and religion is fundamental to human rights, Israel is an anomaly like other religion based states eg Iran.”

After reading some of the history of the political pressures and decisions that resulted in Ben-Gurion and his Big Z Zionist Associates setting up the State of Israel to supersede the British Mandate in Palestine, I think there was no alternative to setting a State of some kind up in the Mandate’s stead.

The tragedy was that that, under Ben Gurion and his associates deliberately made the new State overtly Zionist rather than a secular one particularly receptive to Jewish immigration. That, fundamentally, has been the cause of conflict between Zionists and others, with Zionists accusing, falsely, everyone who disapproves of their ethnic priority of being “anti-semitic”. Since the original Arab and Jewish populations were both semitic, that is both fatuous and also discriminatory on the basis of factors that no Western democracy today legally tolerates.

If Zionists actually wanted peace, they could have it very easily by simply admitting the injustices that the State of Israel has perpetrated on the Arab population descended from residents of British Mandate of Palestine, and negotiating a settlement. The longer Zionists take to own honestly up to that injustice the more will be the anxiety to which every Israeli, Zionist or honourable Jewish but not Zionist, be subjected to.

Either they made the biggest mistake in history, or God was in it.
The recreation of the state of Israel proves that God keeps His promises and that proof for me as a Christian that the Bible is TRUTH!
How could they negotiate a peace with all the Arab nations attacking them overnight? All the Palestinians left Israel and was promised to come back with the Arab armies when they killed the Jews and take the land back. Maybe this Rick must go and read a little up on his history. Since the Jews started to return to the land they have been massacred by the Arabs. Have you read about 1929 in Hebron. Have you read about Munich 1972. Have you ever read up on History?

Either they made the biggest mistake in history, or God was in it.
The recreation of the state of Israel proves that God keeps His promises and that proof for me as a Christian that the Bible is TRUTH!

the funny bit you are missing carl that the quran says the same

here what god says in the quran in arabic with the translation in english .
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى تِسْعَ آيَاتٍ بَيِّنَاتٍ فَاسْأَلْ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ إِذْ جَاءهُمْ فَقَالَ لَهُ فِرْعَونُ إِنِّي لَأَظُنُّكَ يَا مُوسَى مَسْحُورًا-١٠١
To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: “O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
قَالَ لَقَدْ عَلِمْتَ مَا أَنزَلَ هَؤُلاء إِلاَّ رَبُّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ بَصَآئِرَ وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّكَ يَا فِرْعَونُ مَثْبُورًا-١٠٢
Moses said, “Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!
فَأَرَادَ أَن يَسْتَفِزَّهُم مِّنَ الأَرْضِ فَأَغْرَقْنَاهُ وَمَن مَّعَهُ جَمِيعًا-١٠٣
So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.
وَقُلْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِ لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اسْكُنُواْ الأَرْضَ فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا-١٠٤
And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd

are you still with me mr carl , did you read (the land of promise)
(we gathered you together in amingled crowd)(when the second of the warning came to passs)

from all over the world , gathered in israel …

every single muslim believe in this what you believed in , the same in the bible its in the quran about this bit (israel , the promised land , the chosen people )

the problem is you dont accept muslim but muslim are not muslims if they dont believe in christanty , or jesus

be open ,fair,read the quran , at least accept other believes instead of standing blindly with israel .

Saeed,

I am not against Muslims, I have Muslim friends. I am against people that reject the right of the Jews in Israel.

“Do you Israelites think you are more important to me than the Ethiopians ?” asks the LORD. “I brought you out of Egypt, but have I not done as much for other nations, too? I brought the Philistines from Crete and led the Arameans out of Kir”‘ (Amos 9:7).

The eschatological promise of Isaiah predicts Egypt and Assyria worshiping together along with Israel as the “people” and “handiwork” of God and as a “blessing on the earth” (Isa. 19:23-25).
Further proof that Israelis are not unconditionally preferred over non-Israelis is in the book of Samuels;
“And Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you.” 1 Samuel 15:28, and (Jos 13:1)
Non-Israelis were even made superior to Israelis by God;
“And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of the Philistines and into the hand of the Ammonites” Jos 10:7
Even in the New Testament, Gentiles are given a higher status than the Jews;
“And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.” (Luke 4:27)
In conclusion, God is not a Racist who unconditionally prefers one race above another, racist ideologies like the KKK or Nazism or Zionism needs to be revealed as hateful bigot ideologies, and the international love from God needs to prevail above these false racist selective Bible interpreters.

WHATS CRASY PEOPLE THINK HEAVENS PATH WAY IS THROUGH SUPPORTING ISRAEL

GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL AND IF ANY ONE WOULD LIKE TO CORRSPOND WITH ME VIA THE EMAIL HE,SHE IS MOST WELCOME AS LONG I AM ACCEPTED AS MUSLIM .

ALASSAD72@GMAIL.COM

IS MY EMAIL

Isa 14:1 For Jehovah will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel and set them in their own land; and the stranger shall be joined with them, and they shall cling to the house of Jacob.
Isa 14:2 And the peoples shall take them and bring them to their place; and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of Jehovah for slaves and slave girls. And they shall be captives of their captors; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
Again
Isa 60:14 Also the sons of your afflicters shall come bowing to you; and all your despisers will bow down at the soles of your feet. And they will call you, The city of Jehovah, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 60:15 Instead of being forsaken and hated, so that no one passes through, I will make you for everlasting majesty, a joy of many generations.
Isa 60:16 You will also suck the milk of nations, and suck the breast of kings; and you will know that I Jehovah am your Savior and your Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 60:17 For bronze I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver; and for wood I will bring bronze, and for stones, iron. I will also make your overseers to be peace, and your rulers to be righteousness.
Isa 60:18 Violence will no more be heard in your land, wasting nor ruin within your borders; but you will call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise.
Isa 60:19 The sun will no more be your light by day; nor the brightness of the moon give light to you; but Jehovah will be to you for everlasting light, and your God your glory.
Isa 60:20 Your sun will no more go down, nor your moon withdraw; for Jehovah will be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning will be ended.
Isa 60:21 Your people also will all be righteous; they will inherit the land forever, the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, so that I may be glorified.
Isa 60:22 A little one will become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I Jehovah will hasten it in its time.
Also
Isa 61:4 And they will build the old wastes, they will raise up the ruins of former times. And they will repair the waste cities, the ruins of many generations.
Isa 61:5 And strangers will stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the stranger will be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isa 61:6 But you will be named the priests of Jehovah; it will be said of you, Ministers of our God; you will eat the riches of the nations, and you will revel in their glory.
Isa 61:7 For your shame you will have double; and for disgrace they will rejoice in their portion; therefore in their own land they will possess double; everlasting joy will be theirs.
Isa 61:8 For I Jehovah love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
Isa 61:9 And their seed will be known among the nations, and their offspring among the peoples; all who see them will acknowledge them, that they are the seed Jehovah has blessed.
In Ezekiel it says
Eze 39:1 Therefore, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
Eze 39:2 And I will turn you back, and lead you on. And I will bring you up from the recesses of the north, and I will bring you on the mountains of Israel.
Eze 39:3 And I will strike your bow out of your left hand, and will cause your arrows to fall out of your right hand.
Eze 39:4 You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your bands, and the people with you. I will give you for food to the birds of prey of every kind, and to the beasts of the field.
Eze 39:5 You shall fall on the face of the field, for I have spoken, says the Lord Jehovah.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and on the secure inhabitants of the coasts. And they shall know that I am Jehovah.
Eze 39:7 And I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel. And I will not let them profane My holy name any more. And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is coming, and it will be done, says the Lord Jehovah. This is the day of which I have spoken.
Eze 39:9 And the inhabitants of the cities of Israel shall go out and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the javelins, and the spears. And they shall burn them with fire seven years,
Eze 39:10 so that they shall take no wood out of the field, nor cut down any out of the forests for they shall burn the weapons for fire. And they shall plunder those who plundered them, and rob those who robbed them, says the Lord Jehovah.
Eze 39:11 And it will be in that day I will give to Gog a place there, a grave in Israel, the valley of those who pass by, east of the sea. And it shall stop the noses of those who pass by. And there they shall bury Gog and all his multitude. And they shall call it, The Valley of the Multitude of Gog.
Eze 39:12 And the house of Israel shall bury them, to cleanse the land, seven months.
Eze 39:13 And all the people of the land shall bury. And it shall be a name to them, the day when I am glorified, says the Lord Jehovah.
The days are coming
Eze 39:25 Therefore so says the Lord Jehovah: And I will return the captivity of Jacob, and will have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;
Eze 39:26 after they have borne their shame and all their sins by which they have sinned against Me, when they dwell securely in their land and no one terrifies;
Eze 39:27 when I have brought them again from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 then they shall know that I am Jehovah their God who exiled them among the nations. But I have gathered them to their own land, and have not left any of them there.
Eze 39:29 Nor will I hide My face from them any more, for I have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel, says the Lord Jehovah.
Here is more
Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will bring again the captivity of My people Israel and Judah, says Jehovah. And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the Words that Jehovah spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For so says Jehovah, We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask now, and see whether a man is giving birth? Why do I see every man with his hands on his loins, like a woman in labor, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8 For it shall be in that day, says Jehovah of Hosts, I will break his yoke from your neck and will burst your bonds. And strangers shall no longer enslave him,
Jer 30:9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up to them.
Jer 30:10 And you, O My servant Jacob, do not fear, says Jehovah. Do not be terrified, O Israel. For lo, I will save you from afar, and your seed from the land of their captivity. And Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Christians are being persecuted in Bethlehem.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467807655&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Saeed has quoted 6 times from the Bible, and Carl, in reply has ignored Saeed but has quoted from the Bible about 50 times. Some might believe that that means to Carl wins.

If so, how would Carl explain why the Bible contradicts itself? One explanation could be that the Bible in any of its tangible forms is not so much the word of God as influential people’s interpretation of divine wisdom at the time that form was written own. Given that there are both good Palestinians, like Saeed, and bad Jews like the hard-line, possession-driven Zionists, this perspective makes more sense to me than arguing that the “side” able to produce the most scriptural quotes is somehow “right.

Angus,

good to get something from you. You said that the creation of the state of Israel was a mistake.
Where do you get that idea?
Secondly, how do you plan to rectify it with a workable plan?

If you read the text carefully, Mr. Muller, you will see that it was Rick B. who said that the creation of the State of Israel was a mistake.

Here, once gain, Mr. Muller, for your fevered eyes, is the full text of the post of mine that you misread:

From Rick B: “With hindsight, the creation of the state of Israel after WW2 was a mistake. At the time, after the shocking persecution of the Jews, it must have seemed like a good idea to create a safe haven for them. In todays world where separation of the State and religion is fundamental to human rights, Israel is an anomaly like other religion based states eg Iran.”

After reading some of the history of the political pressures and decisions that resulted in Ben-Gurion and his Big Z Zionist Associates setting up the State of Israel to supersede the British Mandate in Palestine, I think there was no alternative to setting a State of some kind up in the Mandate’s stead.

The tragedy was that that, under Ben Gurion, his associates deliberately made the new State overtly Zionist rather than a secular one particularly receptive to Jewish immigration. That, fundamentally, has been the cause of conflict between Zionists and others, with Zionists accusing, falsely, everyone who disapproves of their ethnic priority of being “anti-semitic”. Since the original Arab and Jewish populations were both semitic, that is both fatuous and also discriminatory on the basis of factors that no Western democracy today legally tolerates.

If Zionists actually wanted peace, they could have it very easily by simply admitting the injustices that the State of Israel has perpetrated on the Arab population descended from residents of British Mandate of Palestine, and negotiating a settlement. The longer Zionists take to own honestly up to that injustice the more will be the anxiety to which every Israeli, Zionist or honourable Jewish but not Zionist, be subjected to.

To repeat, what I wrote was:

“After reading some of the history of the political pressures and decisions that resulted in Ben-Gurion and his Big Z Zionist Associates setting up the State of Israel to supersede the British Mandate in Palestine, I think there was no alternative to setting a State of some kind up in the Mandate’s stead.”

That is not saying that the creation of the State of Israel was a mistake. By misreading it to the point of simple fatuity you have wasted a lot of time and created a lot of ill will. IF, therefore, you desire to be regarded as a man of integrity, you will now apologize without delay.

You have also asked, Mr. Muller, “how do you plan to rectify it with a workable plan?”.

Since this is a public forum, I will repeat again that I see the FIRST step in creating a credibility on the part of 60 years of injustice against a few hundred thousand Arab Palestinians in the catastrophe perpetrated by Big Z Zionist Israeli office-holders is to admit that injustice and get serious about offering a settlement, which I think must include an immediate end to the aggression of settlement building that does not have the approval of the West Bank Palestinian authorities. Once that is done, the Palestinians will have no honest course but to consider the justice of the settlement terms — under the watchful eyes of the international community, particularly people like COHRE (Committee on Human Rights and Evictions).

Why do that? Because it would be an honest thing to do, the kind of thing that any divine wisdom would offer. Moreover, no one around the world would be able to justify deny its honesty and everyone would have to admit that it would mark the start of the kind of goodwill that decent people everywhere have a right to expect of a tribe having as many Nobel Laureates per capita as Israelis do and as many fair-minded people as worthy, law-abiding Jewish peoples around the world outside Israel are famous for counting among their number.

mr carl,
i’ve been tought to be 100% truthfull , this will give you the strengeth inside your heart and mind .

posting an article about familly dispute over a land in my city of bethlehem and make it an issue of muslim\christan is far far from the truth , and you are not 100% truthfull when you posted that link

AND therefor your motives is just not right …

you might didnt like what mr angus stated , once you strogly blieve your path to heaven is through israel ,or by standing by israel .
you even believed the bible is the true through israel

ok i want to assume you r right , 100% right ,(are you willing to accept the idea that you might be wrong) and from the bible not the quran , which is the last chapter of the story according to my blieve .

1 -KJV Hebrews 11:17 “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,”

did you read that (his only begotten son )

Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham’s Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

now do you agree with me that you could be 100% wrong , i am asking you to read further and apply your brain as god gave us brains to think not just blindly follow (if it just triger inside you you will see the truth )

let me give you examples
1- israel is wrong and illeagl according to human being law , gods law, jungle law ,

2- israel cannot be your path to heaven (saying if you support israel you will be blessed ) this is just crasy (apply this to your brain does it fit , no it doesnt)

since when blessing is associated with israel or any body else .

you got blessed by the lord for your good deeds ,for being 100% truthfull with your self before others.

as Angus said about zionest is behind all these evil acts not just in palestine but all over the world .

if i want to talk history and being honest good man

1- i would say israel have the right to claim germany
isnt that fair and just
2- belfour declration was wrong and illegal as you cannot promise what you dont own

islamiclly this is what israel

And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
5 When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
6 Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
7 If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
8 It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).
9 Verily this Qur’an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

For 60 years Zionists have been encroaching on lands in the Eastern Mediterranean not owned by them. Throughout this period such actions have been supported by some, but not all, rabbis.

Recording this encroachment process has been Scott Leckie, the Director of an NGO (COHRE — Committee on Housing Rights and Evictions) that specializes in the technical issues of tracing down and adjudicating the consequences of dispossession amongst refugees. He writes, in a personal communication with Joel Kovel, author of the 2006 book published by Toronto’s Between the Lines ‘Overcoming Zionism: Creating a Single Democratic State in Israel/Palestine’:

“Although the prevailing status quo may appear to indicate that the implementation of the rights of displaced Palestinian refugees to return to the homes, lands, and properties from which they have been arbitrarily and illegally displaced is nothing more than a pipedream, nothing could be further from the truth. Restitution of refugee property has now become the norm. Millions of refugees and displaced persons have returned to their original homes in recent decades, from Bosnia, South Africa, and Tajikistan to Germany.

Of the dozens of large, displaced populations throughout the world who have yet to exersize these rights — Serbs, Ossetians, Congolese, Burundians, Liberians, Afghans, and others — no group has anything near the facts, documentation, evidence, and legal basis supporting the right to housing and property restitution as those held by the million-strong Palestinian refugee community. The world has at its fingertips virtually all the land records, title deeds, historical documents, photographs — even house keys — required to make fair restitution a reality for all displaced Palestinians.”

In this context, it is instructive to read an Associated Press news item this morning at the following web link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090528/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

An extract from this link:

“… even the limited step of removing (settlement) outposts faces stiff opposition from the Israeli right. Settler news site Arutz Sheva reported Thursday that leading rabbis linked to the settlement movement had issued a call to soldiers to disobey orders to demolish the outposts.

‘The holy Torah (scripture) prohibits taking part in any act of uprooting Jews from any part of our sacred land’, the site quoted the rabbis’ statement as saying.”

The ‘holy Torah’ was not written in English. Therefore, when claimed as an English statement, its authorship is SOLELY that of the translators. Anyone, therefore, is free to criticize a citation in English of the ‘holy Torah’ and to consider the possibility that it might only be a fatuously self-serving misrepresentation of divine wisdom.

Given also the evidence of COHRE’s director Scott Leckie, who obviously is neither Jewish nor Muslim, that Plaestinian land claims going back 60 years have still not been settled by the office-holders of the State of Israel, one is entitled to conclude that the rabbis who issued the observation above are perilously close to condoning further stealing by the governmental authority under which they live. What kind of hypocrisy is that???!!!

The AP news item goes on:

“The new Israeli and the U.S. leaders have strikingly different approaches to Israeli-Palestinian relations. Netanyahu refuses to endorse Palestinian independence, a notion supported by Obama, his predecessor and the previous Israeli government.

Clinton said Obama told Netanyahu last week when the two met at the White House that the U.S. sees stopping settlements as key to a peace deal that would see a Palestinian state created alongside Israel.

“He wants to see a stop to settlements — not some settlements, not outposts, not ‘natural growth’ exceptions,” Clinton said. “We think it is in the best interests (of the peace process) that settlement expansion cease. That is our position. That is what we have communicated very clearly. … And we intend to press that point.”

Is stealing other people’s land a holy act? There is not one widely respected religion in the world that condones stealing — unless it be the “pseudo-religion propounded by the Zionist interpretation, one going back only a century or two, of ancient Hebrew scriptures. And if so, of what possible value to modern life could such a pseudo-religion be? In my opinion it could only be negative and dangerous for believers and unbelievers alike.

Jewish settlers in the West Bank clearly know that it is only their government that has the temporal power to facilitate the stealing of land owned by others. Well, how much longer can they expect Washington to subsidize their defence if they themselves are flagrantly stealing other people’s land? Pogroms of Jews in the past have no doubt been unjust. In this present instance we can clearly see that Big Z Zionists are heaping the fires of an impending progrom on their own heads.

Just a question. How much have Jews received from Germany or any Arab country which they fled after 1900 for their property.
Has this ever been investigated?

You have asked a question of contemporary interest, Mr. Muller. I only know that Germany has paid some reparations to Israelis. Exactly how much, or what German and Israeli citizens think of the adequacy of that sum, if indeed they are generally aware of it, I do not know.

The issue of reparations for the Nazi Holocaust is an issue between Israel and Germany. The issue of reparations for dispossession of Palestinian lands is a separate matter between Israel and the Palestinians. Although comparisons between the two are not without interest, the issues are distinct.

Zionist Isrealis are holding people, who were innocent of the Holocaust, responsible for fulfilling what Big Z Zionist Israelis, but not all Israelis, believe is their entitlement as survivors of the Holocaust. One can be understanding of that pretence, but one would be insane to accept it simplistically.

Obviously the issues remain distinct even if angst-filled people do not acknowledge the fact of their distinction. I believe that hypocritical and mischievous Zionist rabbis have been rendering such an acknowledgment even more difficult by pretending that their (the big Z Zionist rabbi’s) interpretation in English of their ancient scriptures is divine wisdom. Frankly, I think that is a grievous misuse of their social status. I believe it would probably be held criminal in any country other than Zionistic Israel.

Do you know that no Jew received anything from the Arab countries. Do you do anything about that? If not, why only for the Palestinians? Are you biased? Just asking?

Why should a aggressor be compensated?

Dear Angus ,

what if i blieve

1- i am going to heaven by standing with israel
2- i will be blessed by standing with israel
3- USA is blessed and its super power these adays because it did stand with israel (i wonder this apply for the british empire , the greek, the romans , the muslims when they were super poweres in the past , what about the russians and the chiness )

and if you ask any one , did jesus accept this nonesense , or moses , or god the creator , he just blindly stand with israel as he , she wanted to go to heaven you see .

if i am strong or got the power i can do what ever ? this is israel
this justify why israel didnt implement the international law
it justfy why israel didnt withdraw from east jerusalem
it justfy why israel dont want to stop the illegal settlement
it justfy why israel refuse for the refugee from coming back to there villiges and towns
while in fact israel is the weakest and most shallow state on Earth. Speaking logically. israel struggles to make its lies become truth which is a huge sign on what I am saying. The want to sew mouths so people show the world their lies and propaganda .

In 1948 all the Arab countries attacked Israel. They were the aggressors.
The Jews left the Arab countries after that because they feared for their lives.

Mr. Muller simplifies. While it is true that in 1948 the State of Israel was declared and it is also true that the Arabs attacked it, that history is only a simplicity.

Let us now assess whether Mr. Muller’s simplicity is a useful one in bringing peace to the people of the Eastern Mediterranean. People do not attack others with some reason. People only attack others for a strong reason, be that a spurious one or a valid one.

The reasons for the Arab attack on Israel in 1948 lie in the big Z Zionist policies of the founders of the State of Israel. In brief, big Z Zionists believe that they and those who believe the same as they do are entitled to be the owners of a territory known as Eretz Israel, which extends far beyond the borders that the State of Israel has ever had. Big Z Zionists did not, and do not, own this land, although they have purchased some of it legitimately. But others had, under the British Mandate for Palestine, ownership of substantial portions of that land, and at least some of their claims of dispossession since 1948 by big Z Zionists have been lodged with the NGO COHRE — Committee on Housing Rights and Evictions. Still other land was not formerly registered as to ownership with any government.

Scott Leckie is the Director of COHRE. It specializes in the technical issues of tracing down and adjudicating the consequences of dispossession amongst refugees. He writes, in a personal communication with Joel Kovel, author of the 2006 book published by Toronto’s Between the Lines “Overcoming Zionism: Creating a Single Democratic State in Israel/Palestine” as follows:

“Although the prevailing status quo may appear to indicate that the implementation of the rights of displaced Palestinian refugees to return to the homes, lands, and properties from which they have been arbitrarily and illegally displaced is nothing more than a pipedream, nothing could be further from the truth. Restitution of refugee property has now become the norm. Millions of refugees and displaced persons have returned to their original homes in recent decades, from Bosnia, South Africa, and Tajikistan to Germany.

Of the dozens of large, displaced populations throughout the world who have yet to exersize these rights — Serbs, Ossetians, Congolese, Burundians, Liberians, Afghans, and others — no group has anything near the facts, documentation, evidence, and legal basis supporting the right to housing and property restitution as those held by the million-strong Palestinian refugee community. The world has at its fingertips virtually all the land records, title deeds, historical documents, photographs — even house keys — required to make fair restitution a reality for all displaced Palestinians.”

Only when the State of Israel makes explicit and public before the world that it acknowledges these claims, will its office-holders have taken a step toward honesty in their behaviour in the Eastern Mediterranean. In the interim of that happening, the simplicities of people like Carl Muller and the big Z Zionists are diabolically misleading. People like Carl Muller play havoc with the whole truth needed to reconcile the hostilities rampant since big Z Zionists began using the tragedy of European pograms to justify their usurpation of land rights in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Carl Muller has already been found guilty of misconstruing, in a post on this forum, a post of mine on this forum, for which shortcoming he has so far refused to apologize. We can now see in this post, how his last post was a gross and misleading simplicity. If he wishes to retain credibility in this forum, he will have to acknowledge his guilt in respect not only of misconstrual but now also of grossly (and deliberately deceptively?) misleading Jesus Lives readers.

Is he a big Z Zionist? I think it is high time Mr. Muller either apologized, or disappeared from Jesus Lives, or that we hear his personal beliefs about Zionism.

I do not disappear. Neither do I apologize. I can clearly see that you are an anti Semite.
You do hate the Jews, please acknowledge the fact.
I am a Christian that lived in Jerusalem in 1983. It is interesting that the Jews have lived there since about a thousand years BC when King David bought the threshing floor from the Jebusite. That is if you believe the Bible.
2Sa 24:24 And the king said to Araunah, No, but I will surely buy from you at a price. And I will not offer burnt offerings to Jehovah my God of that which costs me nothing. And David bought the threshing-floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.
You are type that send the Jews to the ovens. You just lived 6 years too late.
Just one question, do you believe the Holocaust happened? Remember where Hitler murdered 12 Million people, about 6 million of them Jews.

Mr. Muller has told us that he does not apologize. He also says he is a Christian. How can one be Christian and have a flat policy against apologizing? Is he some kind of perfection freak?

Mr. Muller has accused me of being anti-Semite. Let us first be sure that Mr. Muller knows what a Semite is. A Semite is a member of the race of human beings who originally lived between South Asia and the Bosphorus. The Semitic race includes both Arabic and Jewish people. I have good friends who are Jewish and I have good friends who are Arabic. I also have friends who are neither Jewish nor Arabic. I myself have a Jewish mother, and therefore, by Jewish tradition, people call me Jewish.

I consider myself to be a human being first. Does anyone have an issue with that identity?

Mr. Muller would be correct if he had accused me of being anti big Zionism. I consider the rest of his post to be either irrelevant or absurd.

mr carl ,

i cannot see any diffrent between your blieves and socide bombers

this is what i’ve been trying to prove , the conflict in my beloved palestine is believes , not borders ,land ,water recourses ,

them arab muslim are evil they are going to hell , even nuke them is justfiable according to your believes , as other do justfy socide bombers ? can you see any diffrents , i cannot .

if your believes tells you this ,whats the point even talking , nothing left between you and me , you either kill me or i kill you and this is the middle east conflict .

why stealing the country and cause millions to suffer for more than 60 years is justfiable by you or your believes and socide bombing is not justifable for the palestanine .

its you and such apeople like you are the problem in the middle east

believes , god , the lord , olahim , allah , (its funny lingusticlly allah and olahim are simliar) cannot be raceset , or unjust , thats what i’ve been trying to tell you to use your brain before believe in killing and justfy illegal israel .

I can only apologize when I make mistakes. If what I write is irrelevant or absurd, why ignore it.
You don’t answer it because it is the truth.

Mr. Muller appears to be admitting that, when he makes a mistake, he would, as a Christian, have an obligation to apologize. That seems to be progress for Mr. Muller’s version of Christianity.

Mr. Muller next claims he knows better than I why I refuse to comment on some text of his that I consider to be irrelevant or absurd. Is he now pretending to be a mind-reader? Or is he unwilling to consider, just consider, the possibility that some of his beliefs are unfounded?

We live, Mr. Muller, in a world that is politicized to an unparalleled extent. Israelis, particularly, face a relentless struggle to justify the existence of their state, and their politicians, like politicians everywhere, put out partisan positions in order to attract and retain votes, although there are some honourable exceptions who attempt to discover and disseminate truth. When you were in Jerusalem, did you observe any evidence of this “politicization” phenomenon.

Faith can be a beautiful thing. Blind faith can be downright dangerous.
After reading the various comments made here, I’m convinced that an overwhelming majority of those that preach open-mindedness regarding religion, and a tolerance for their beliefs, are absolutely singular in their convictions, refusing to even consider the mere possibility that just a single one of their ideas, are even the slightest bit flawed in any way. This wouldn’t be such a travesty, if it was contained to philosophical or metaphysical debates, where it could be attributed to a strong difference of opinions, but when you blindly disregard empirical evidence and facts, because it doesn’t match your system of beliefs, well, that’s just downright absurd, if not dangerous in the sense that if we were all so blatantly unequivocal in all regards, we would never have evolved beyond living in caves and hunting with sharp sticks.
At the same time, the level of hypocrisy displayed here, is nothing short of astounding. How many of the ten commandments are you breaking, when you applaud a system built on segregation, sustained with torture, wrongful imprisonment, and murder, no matter who was entitled to that piece of land? How many sins are considered just, if done in the name of the Lord? I may not have read the Bible for several years now, but I refuse to believe that the overall message of it, was: “All is forgiven, if done for God”. Isn’t that the same type of fanaticism you rigidly denounce in the form of suicide-bombings, and other acts of that sort?
I assume that most of those who will read my comment, will either support it because they already agreed, of flat-out disregard what I wrote because they didn’t. I’m not saying the Jews should be kicked out of Palestine/Israel, nor am I saying that they aren’t entitled to live in a land they consider sacred. In a perfect world, they’d live there side by side with each other. In this world, we should at least be able to come up with a two-state solution. The only thing stopping that, is that same relentless pursuit I’ve criticized here, of only one truth; the truth you think you know, instead of the actual truth, that is constantly challenged and changed. The Jews won’t give it up, ’cause they think it’s theirs, and vice-versa with the Muslims.
The fact of the matter is, whether you believe in the writings of the Bible or not, human empathy should not be exclusive to certain groups of people.

Alex, please answer the following questions:

Have you even read the Bible? Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? Do you even believe that Jesus Christ is God and created everything? Do you believe that man sinned and was lost and without redemption he was lost for eternity?

Jerusalem was declared the Capital by King David 3000 years ago. Only when the Jews took over Jerusalem was there freedom of religion in East Jerusalem.
Presently there are 70 % Palestinians in Jordan. When the state of Israel was created, it was divided in Jordan and Israel.
The Arabs (Palestinians did not want that, they wanted the whole of Israel.
Jesus, the Messiah is coming back to Jerusalem. He said, I have come specifically for the Jews.
I do not deny the fact that there are Palestinians live in Israel. They even have voting powers and can work anywhere.
However, the majority of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank does not recognize Israel. The Jews left the Arab countries with the clothes on their back, and made a new home in Israel out of nothing.
Israel and the world have given many thing to the Palestinian people. The even withdrew from areas. What is left over of the houses and buildings and farms. Can they produce anything from that? No, they came in and destroyed everything. What happens to the $Billions they have received in aid. Have they started clinics, schools or universities. They buy weapons, for what.
Why is it that it is safe for an Arab or Palestinian to walk anywhere Israel, but is is not safe for a Jew to walk in the West Bank or any Aran country.
Not even Christians are aloud there.
Watch http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=F40DD4D90B9BB631
and see what happens when Muslims become Christians. Then they are killed and persecuted.
Also read about Walid Shoebat at http://www.shoebat.com/ Read how he left the terrorists and had to leave his home. Read about the indoctrination and hate in the years he was a child.
A Jewish doctor saved his father’s life.

This post is directed to Alex Jarardi, whom we can all thank for making the point (approximately) that, if we were to try to extend human empathy to a larger group than those who agree with us, everyone on Earth would begin to enjoy a happier world.

In this context, I invite you, Alex, to consider posting to the Truth Tree, which is dedicated to furthering rational and scientific debate and discussion, a subject in which empathy begins to become an organizing principle. You will find the Truth to be a website with an abundance of materials designed by a very experienced and empathic Clinical Psychologist to help people who are sincere in discovering deeper aspects of truth, such as that it grows without changing and, because that is so, the very notion of being able to claim knowledge of THE truth is a fatuously monopolistic and divisive idea whose hegemony over book-bound minds is ending. Here’s a web reference that is on the subject of this topic of Eastern Mediterranean politics and so might be a good entry point for you:

http://www.truthtree.com/Politics/posts/351483.html

Angus

Can anyone please tell me is it wrong to go to church im so confused I dont know what to do anymore im just a young man who seeks the thruth… Is wrong or should we gather at home as a family and have church as in the olden days where Jesus visited the people at home. I stand with ISRAEL cause its the land of my king and Saviour and I know we as people are the tempel of God our selfs….

I hear you have confusion, Jf. I hear your age is young. I hear you want to know what to do. I hear you wonder whether to go to church or gather at home. What is your inner being saying? You are free to keep that to yourself. What your inner being is telling you is worth listening to for your own consideration. It is worth considering as an equal voice along with what others whom you KNOW to have been trustworthy are suggesting. Others, whom you KNOW to have failed your trust, are PROBABLY not worth listening to.

Angus

Abraham did not go to church. Neither did Moses or Noah. You can have a relationship with almighty G-d. That is why he send Jesus. For that reason did he die.
Talk to God and let Him talk to you through the scriptures. Or maybe He will talk to you in the many ways that He still does today.
I do not go to church but belong to a fellowship of men one night a week.

I believe that Christians in South African politics need to make a stand and be vocal about standing for Israel. Our government of the day will easily default and may through stupid acts or words bring a curse upon SA.

I do not need theological explanations or man-made arguments. The Holy spirit says I must not go against Israel and the bible confirms; that is enough.

Boanerges, if you think that the Jews are not God’s chosen people, please read the eleventh chapter of Romans. It will give you a better understanding.

Boanerges, please read the eleventh chapter of Romans. It will give you a better understanding concerning who the chosen people of God is.

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (Peace Be Upon You) to everyone here.

It has been quite interesting journeying through most of the comments above. I have read people stating their cases using historic events, Biblical Verses, Quranic Verses and in some cases just plain brainwashed logic (or “illogic” for that matter).

Brother and Sisters, we are unfortunately living in an age of warfare. Information warfare is at the forefront of this and technology has allowed anybody with a PC and an internet connection to enter it. In traditional war, certain skills were required to enter an army. In information warfare, unfortunately there is no recruitment/selection body, to filter out the “noise” or “weak links” (for lack of a better/politically correct phrase). However I must say, the comments above have been a good representation of the spectrum, i.e. from the literate well-read and religiously/spiritually enlightened to the “literacy challenged” and those brain washed by the powerful media propaganda machine.

It has been interesting! However the only downfall is that no matter how much the literate, well-read may try, the brain-washed will just never be able see to the light. So for those that are able to analyse information efficiently and make an informed decision, this discussion has been a decent one.

So, on the topic at hand – Palestine/Israel. Before I start I would like to say that I do understand that I face the risk of a “one lane highway” thinker shooting me down with his/her “this is just how it is – because that’s what they told me and I am too stoopid to think for myself” comments. I pray to Almighty Allah / Elahum / God (which ever name you call him by) that these people find peace in their souls and light in their minds.

Okay, so here is a ‘did you know’:

Did you know that in the pre-occupation Palestine (an Islamic State), Muslims, Jews and Christians used to live peacefully as neighbours. They practiced their religions with full freedom, their children used to play together, they would invite each other over for meals and all was good.

Then came a group of people from a far away land saying this land “belongs to the Jews” and started causing havoc. The beautiful, peaceful state of Palestine was never to be the same.

Watch Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss talk about such a state: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9OIqy6md9w&feature=related

So who were these people. I did not say that this group of people were Jews – because they were not – but they proclaimed the land for the Jews. So who were they?

They were power hungry, atheistic, morally challenged people who wanted a piece of land somewhere in the world where they could exercise power over people. At this point, I would just like to say this: I believe wars are fought for two things: Power and Resources (which eventually brings power). And power is such that with the slightest gap in spiritual strength can corrupt even the most honorable – imagine it in the hand of the already corrupt.

Okay… so these were corrupt people with resources and some power (but not as much as they wanted) living in the queens land and they wanted to exercise power over people – obviously, because that is the greatest form of power!

But, which people will they exercise power over? Well, that was easy – the tortured, weak, brutalised Jewish community of Europe that had just escaped the ruthless claws of the Holocaust. They would find a piece of land that these Jews could call home and rule over them – now they were happy! Imagine the height of corruption, taking advantage of the weak by giving them false hope.

These corrupt people were the Zionists – the Atheists – the Evil!
I will now de-capitlise the ‘z’ in Zionists.

So now – the next question was where do they find the land? Using their resources they bribed the british government (I am not even going to start on this government – but would just like to say that they are the most evil of any governments that stepped foot on this planet – and I have deliberately de-capitalised the ‘b’ in british ) to allocate a piece of land to them where they could exercise their corrupt power over “their Jews”.

The mighty british (with their greed fulfilled) set out looking for that land. Now, the European countries – the original pre-holocaust homes of the Jews, did not want them back. Why you may ask?? Well because they always had a racist agenda against the Jews living in their countries (wow what a parallel can be drawn here with the current racism against Muslims in Europe) and did not want them back.

So after some scheming (the british government are brilliant schemers – we have to give them that!) they thought:

“Well, why not hand the zionists our recently conquered land of Palestine. It makes perfect sense! The Torah calls it the Promised Land, The Bible refers to it as the same and so does the Quran. Forget about the context in which each of these Holy Books talks about it – we’ll let them fight it out!”.

Now, understand that the british government does not do anything without ensuring their own interests first. Handing this land over to the Zionists was just perfect for their plan of further destabilising the Muslim world which they had been working on for some time now. Why you may ask? Well, that is because the Muslim Empire was the greatest insecurity that the british government had for THEIR OWN POWER! (but this is a whole different topic that can discussed at another forum/blog).

So in their devious scheming ways, the British and the Zionists initiated a plan to acquire all the Muslim (and some Christian) owned land in Palestine. As this continued, the now hopeful Jews were given promises of re-locating to their Promised Land where they would live peacefully in a “Jewish State” (run by evil, corrupt Zionists).

Thousands of deceived Jews with their families disembarked their ferries and entered the land of Palestine – the land Allah / Elahum / God called the Promised Land in the Torah and as it was re-promisaed to them by the Zionists. Little did they know that there were a people that lived on these lands with their families and friends (both Jew and Christian) in peace and had been driven out by the evil british and zionists.

Yes, as any people would fight for their own land that was snatched from them, so would the displaced Muslims.

The brainwashing of the new Jewish inhabitants now began by the their zionist government to such and extent that where there was love amongst a previous Jew and Muslim neighbour now turned to hate and the Jews started to fight the Muslims off their new – old Promised Land…

The newly formed zionist state of israel had support from the british and through that from entire Europe. So assistance for their war on the Muslims started pouring into israel – ammunition, money, knowledge on warfare and even soldiers. After-all the british and the Europeans had to ensure that the Jews do not come back to their lands.

Yes, since then there have been many casualties on both sides, but if there is any human being out there that tells me that more casualties have been suffered by the zionist state of israel that the occupied territories of Palestine – I will straight up deny their humanness!

Remove the blind fold of the extremely powerful zionist media propaganda machine, open your eyes and you will see the true carnage inflicted by an originally innocent but deceived and now hateful nation towards the now weak, resource-less Palestinian fighting for his right to go back home!

Some more videos and links:
Videos
——
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUTRjQSihk&NR=1

Links
—–
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Disclaimer:
———–
If I have have got any facts wrong in my words above, I do apologise – the reader can be assured that it was not done intentionally.

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (Peace Be Upon You)

Please listen to http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ADF6A5B34D9C175F&search_query=muslim+persecute+chirstians and see how the Muslims persecute Christian believers in Muslim countries.
There are 54 videos in this list.
See how they beheaded 4 women that converted to Christianity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LK8-4SO63Q
See Why Tass Saada – a PLO Sniper – Left Islam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LROZphLXLCk.
See how Muslims clerics convert to Christianity http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcaLQa97PA and are persecuted by the Muslims.
Read how many Muslim clerics convert to Christianity http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html and are persecuted.

Let me summarize the last two posts.

Farhaan Khan would have us believe that Zionists bribed leaders of the British Government Mandate in Palestine to support Zionist usurpation of land owned by Palestinians.

Carl Muller would have us believe that, because there have been atrocities committed in the name of Islam, Zionists have a right to displace the Muslim populations who have had titles to land in Palestine from either or both Turkish Colonial times or the British Mandate.

Neither are correct.

The history of British attempts to keep peace in Palestine during their Mandate (1917-48) is one of nothing but burdensome peacekeeping. Notably it included the British Navy turning back boatloads of Jewish emigres from the Displaced Persons camps after WWII and the murder of their senior official in Palestine by the Zionist terrorist Stern Gang. To guess that the British were bribed to let in Zionists is to ignore a very great deal of history — perhaps to justify an anti-British feeling held for reasons having little to do with the broad accusation of corruption that Mr. Khan alleges. Britain did not seek its Palestinian Mandate after WWI and it was in any case so costly that she had difficulty finding a replacement authority when her debts to United States munitions suppliers after WWII necessitated her returning her Mandate to the United Nations. The following however, needs to be emphasized because it bears on the current issue of settlement building by the Likud-headed Government of Israel:

Scott Leckie is the Director of an NGO (COHRE — Committee on Housing Rights and Evictions) that specializes in the technical issues of tracing down and adjudicating the consequences of dispossession amongst refugees. He writes, in a personal communication with Joel Kovel, author of the 2006 book published by Toronto’s Between the Lines ‘Overcoming Zionism: Creating a Single Democratic State in Israel/Palestine’:

“Although the prevailing status quo may appear to indicate that the implementation of the rights of displaced Palestinian refugees to return to the homes, lands, and properties from which they have been arbitrarily and illegally displaced is nothing more than a pipedream, nothing could be further from the truth. Restitution of refugee property has now become the norm. Millions of refugees and displaced persons have returned to their original homes in recent decades, from Bosnia, South Africa, and Tajikistan to Germany.

Of the dozens of large, displaced populations throughout the world who have yet to exersize these rights — Serbs, Ossetians, Congolese, Burundians, Liberians, Afghans, and others — no group has anything near the facts, documentation, evidence, and legal basis supporting the right to housing and property restitution as those held by the million-strong Palestinian refugee community. The world has at its fingertips virtually all the land records, title deeds, historical documents, photographs — even house keys — required to make fair restitution a reality for all displaced Palestinians.”

Carl Muller’s links will no doubt cite many instances of atrocities committed by people professing Islam. Throughout the history of all religions there have been people professing them who have not lived by the ideals they profess but have flagrantly disregarded them in rabid self-interest. Islam is not an exception to this, nor is Judaism, nor is any religion. While the particular atrocities to which Mr. Muller’s links point are to be regretted, one could point to atrocities perpetrated by Zionists on just as large a scale.

Two wrongs do not make a right. To the extent we each have anger and agony over the struggle in the Eastern Mediterranean, we want to bring it to an end. We cannot do so by pointing fingers at the other side.

The good news, however, is that, fundamentally, we are all human beings seeking well-being. By accepting this common reality we can can begin to find the magnanimity with which to help our friends in the Eastern Mediterranean cease their religious and financial vendettas and complete the arduous existential journey of growing into emotionally mature fellow human beings:

http://www.authentixcoaches.com/EvoMaturity.html

As I don’t trust the Islamic regime in Iran since 1979, where Mahmoud Amadinejad, the Tehran Tyrant, called for the destruction of Israel, I stand by Israel 100% when, and not if, they decide to strike Iran’s nuclear facilities. With all the oil Iran has, what need do they have for nuclear energy??

If Iran wants to join the community of nations with the rest of the world, one of the things they can do, albeit small, is to turn over Dawud Salahuddin(formerly David Belefield) to U.S authorities, who is wanted in the state of MD for the early ’80s murder of an Iranian exile who was a postal carrier.

Many countries have lots of oil. Britain, for example, and Canada. Yet both are leaders in nuclear energy development. That is only sensible given the long-term trend to higher crude oil prices and the sharp upward shift in citizen and political concern toward climate change. (Global warming is a misnomer used only by thought dynosaurs invested in oil-related technologies).

There are plenty of things that both Iran and Israel could do to climb down from their posturing rhetoric. To parallel Michael’s suggestion for Iran, I offer the suggestion that Israel would help itself if it were invite Ahmadinejad or an official of his to visit Israel’s Holocaust Museum. Why doesn’t the Government of Israel do that. Are the officeholders of Israel as afraid of their own people as appears also to be the case in Iran?

http://www.authentixcoaches.com/ACAuthenticDialogue.html

No, the officeholders of Israel are mostly former terrorists. Check it out folks… Commit terrorist acts, get on a list of known terrorists in the UK or Europe and VOILA!! You are an Israeli hero! WOO HOO Check it out! Israel commits more terrorist acts than any other nation. It was founded on the blood of not only the Palestinians, but also the bombing and murder of 92 British citizens in the King David Hotel.
As a Jew I am still in exile as the messiah is not here. Political Zionism is not a reason to forget the Torah. Nor is it a reason to treat another people the way the nazis treated the Jews of Germany and eastern Europe. Support Israel? No, I read and obey the commandments. Murder, theft and coveting are daily practice in Israel.

I will always stand with Israel and would be a fool to ever turn against God’s people or the land. The best to Israel! God keep you, bless you forever!

Interesting to observe these last two posts.

Regarding Torah Reading Jew, thank you for having the courage to bring into this debate your learnings concerning the terrorist backgrounds of so many office-holders in the State of Israel.

Regarding Roshea1956, are there no people of God outside Israeli citizens?

Apparently this is in the Koran. Can someone confirm and deny it?
Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them. Quran 2:
Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood. Quran 9:123
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them. Quran 9:5
Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable. Quran 3:85
The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them. Quran 9:30
Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam Quran 5:33
The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque. Quran 9:28
Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt
their skin and bellies. Quran 22:19
Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them. Quran 47:4
The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them. Quran 8:65
Muslims must not take the infidels as friends. Quran 3:28
Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Quran. Quran 8:12
Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels. Quran 8:60

According to the Torah it is as good to murder someone when you attack their character.

Is your purpose to incite hatred, Mr. Muller? The imam to whom I talked when I read some verses verging on the quality of your citations in my English language Q’uran said that Islam was started in a revolution, and that the Prophet had to incite his followers to keep the revolution going. The Jewish prophets had a similar problem at different times and the Old Testament has verses that are similarly inciting. Do you remember what someone is reported to have done with the jawbone of an ass?

Given these parallel realities, there is nothing to be gained in dredging such verses up — UNLESS one interprets them, for people alive today, as metaphors for the war between animal instincts and conduct of goodwill toward neighbour. This metaphorical teaching has graced the religious education of every monotheistic religion, not excluding Islam, which means Peace. It is also present in, for example, the Hindu Bagavad Gita and in Bhuddist scriptures.

In sum: reading scriptures literally is the mark of a very bigoted idiot.

Angus, A comment on your last point: The Bible has to be taken literally, or else why believe anything it says.

Although you did not put a question mark on the end of “why believe anything it says”, Blumarine, I will assume that was an oversight and not indicative of your being uninterested in an answer.

To me, and to the two fellow Christians with whom I had a heart-to-heart conversation this very evening, the Bible is a means of giving people who recognize the universal rationality of the Golden Rule a lot of experience in recognizing both its proper application and its abuse. (We neither of us met God in the Bible. That comes through prayer and meditation).

From that perspective, it is not necessary that every word in the Bible be taken literally for it to be rated a superlative means of giving people almost direct experience in matters spiritual and relational. And, given that the universe is always new every succeeding moment, i.e. nothing has ever happened exactly the same twice, we actually must think presently rather than simply ape thought and behaviour described rather curtly in words handed down as part of a narrative of a bygone moment.

If one contemplates this for a moment one can summon the perspective that books other than the Bible are also the word of God, and NONE of the sacred scriptures need then be taken literally.

Please do not, Blumarine, read anything in this as intended to draw you away from your present faith, but only as encouragement to see all humanity as God’s children, all of us striving in our own ways — some very strange and anti-social, I will admit — to find and obey and love God (some would use the term “the divine”), and all of us falling short — sometimes grossly, sometimes scarcely at all — in our relationships of wise application of the Golden Rule.

Angus,
I corresponded with the Muslim Saeed above and in the end he said to me I wll have to make war on you and kill you. And he believes the Koran. He believes these verses from the Koran. And he threatened me and wants to make war against me in the name of the Prophet.
That is his attitude and he believes these verses.
It is interesting you did not query anything he said on this page. Are you maybe a Muslim because you attack anyone quoting from the Bible and then Christians quoting from the Koran.
I have yet to read where in the Bible we must kill Jews or Muslims, or Jews Christians.

Angus, you are the only person here calling other people names. Is there something wrong?
Do you have a small psychological that shows when people differ with you?
But don’t worry, we do understand it. Hitler also had Jews in his ancestors and people that don’t know where they fit in always have a problem.

Carl:

Thank you for your summary of what Saeed told you. Your account does not square with his account to me of the positions you have taken in this Forum.

You are correct that I have not queried anything Saeed wrote on this page. If you think I “should” have queried something on it, I think you might now show the courtesy of pointing me to the date of the message you have identified, and also briefly explain what query I “should”, to satisfy your (bigoted?) sense of propriety, have raised.

I have met many bigoted people. Bigoted people are menaces to the harmony of the world in which both you and I live, Carl, in that, by behaving as if they cannot enlarge their perspective, i.e. learn from others sharing the Earth with them, they perpetuate strife between people with different experiences.

God made us all different. That includes each of us having different beliefs. You can see that even within in one’s own family and the same is true even within any single religious institution. So, to avoid manifesting the social menace that bigotry is, one must try to develop the empathy to understand the points of view of others earnestly trying also to give up the bigotry that is a natural manifestation when one encounters experiences not described in one’s preferred scripture.

It is true that the Bible does not mention Muslims. Perhaps you mentined this because you had forgotten that Islam was not present as a religion when any of the Bible’s books were originally written; but the Philistines, Babylonians, Persians, Assyrians and countless other tribes with which the early Jewish tribes were enemies were mentioned in much the same hateful ways as the early parts of the Quran mentions “infidels”.

You tell us that Hitler had people of Jewish ancestry among his ancestry. I imagine that there will now be very few people on the planet who do not have have people of Jewish ancestry amongst their ancestry. But what was the point you had in bringing Hitler into this forum, Carl?

You criticize me and call me an idiot. I disagree with you and lost all respect for you. You hate Israel and the Jews in Israel. You do not accept that there are people on this earth having a different viewpoint than you.
Yet never have I criticized your viewpoint or attacked your person.
Because people stayed quiet when Hitler started hate speech towards the Jews, we had the Holocaust.
As requested I corresponded with Saeed to his private email Most obviously he did not want everyone see that he is prepared to kill me and make war against me because of my viewpoint.
Please excuse me if I ignore you in future.

Carl Muller (referring to Angus): “You hate Israel and the Jews in Israel.” Incorrect. I have friends in Israel. I take issue with the Big Z Zionist point of view. I will not miss Carl Muller’s posts. Will anyone else?